The Divorce Chapter

EP91 The Legal Chapter: What You Really Need to Know About Divorce Law with Rebecca Baker

• Sarah Elizabeth • Episode 91

Share episode

Send us a text

Thinking about divorce or already knee-deep in it? Family lawyer Rebecca Baker joins me to break down what you really need to know about the legal side…. no jargon, just truth.

In this episode, I’m joined by the brilliant Rebecca Baker from Rucklidge Law Limited to break down what you actually need to know when it comes to the legal side of divorce.

We chat about the emotional chaos that comes with the paperwork, how to protect your peace during the process, and what to do if you're feeling totally overwhelmed by the idea of solicitors, forms, or facing court.

Rebecca shares LOADS of insight… on no-fault divorce, how to handle the “amicable” stage without getting screwed over, and when to get legal advice before things go sideways. 

Whether you're just thinking about separating or already knee-deep in the process, this one is packed with practical tips and grounded support.

📞 Contact Rebecca Baker

📚 Helpful Free Resources from Rebecca:

📌 Other Helpful Links mentioned in the episode:

If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who needs to hear it…. and don’t forget to subscribe for more straight-talking, no-fluff support.

Loads of love,
Sarah x
 🌸

P.S. We’re reading Confidence Feels Like Sh*t on Amazon UK* by Erika Cramer AKA The Queen of Confidence in The Divorce Book Club this June…. and trust me, it’s the glow-up energy you need after the legal chaos. Join us to highlight, rage, and rebuild with a group of women who get it 💥

⬇️

THE DIVORCE BOOK CLUB
 
https://patreon.com/thedivorcebookclub

FREE Guide to the 10 MUST read divorce books after divorce

https://thedivorcebookclub.com/free-resources/

INSTAGRAM

https://www.instagram.com/thedivorcechapter

SPEAKERS

Rebecca Baker, Sarah Elizabeth

Sarah Elizabeth  00:00

Hello and welcome to the divorce chapter podcast where we turn the often nightmare plot twist of divorce into a seriously happy ever after. I'm your host, Sarah, Elizabeth, and I'm super excited today to introduce you to another fabulous guest, the brilliant Rebecca Baker of Rucklidge Law Limited. Rebecca is a consultant solicitor with over 30 years of experience in all aspects of family law. Her extensive legal expertise encompasses divorce, financial issues and matters relating to children, and she gives you a user friendly and accessible experience so that you can be supported and feel empowered during what can be one of the most stressful periods in your life. 100% this. Her primary focus is on achieving the best possible outcome for you and your family, which means trying to avoid court proceedings whenever possible. Rebecca is committed to guiding you through each stage of the legal process so that you have a clear understanding of your situation and options. And she is dedicated to providing compassionate and expert legal advice, whatever that looks like for you. Rebecca, I wish I'd known you back in my divorce shitshow. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast. 

Rebecca Baker  01:17

Oh, thank you, Sarah, that was a lovely introduction. I'm very excited to be here. 

Sarah Elizabeth  01:24

I'm very excited to have you. So before we start, I just want to let listeners know that we're looking to get Rebecca on the divorce chapter as a regular feature, which is very exciting, going into much more detail on all these legal worries and subjects that really matter. So today we're going to give you a bit of an intro to divorce like a whistle stop tour 101 style to introduce Rebecca and the legal expertise with that in mind, Rebecca, can you tell us a bit about yourself and what led you to family Law? 

Rebecca Baker  01:58

Okay, where to start? So I am from Barnsley. I've lived in Barnsley all my life, born and bred so very northern. I have been in this game now for 30 years, and I've worked at various firms over the course of my experience, started at a firm called Jack Danaher and Co back when I was 16 years old, I think. And what happened is I was introduced to this firm, and they offered me a role as office junior, and that's where I started my legal journey as a Crown Court Clerk of all things, which is basically sitting behind a barrister in criminal cases, which used to terrify me, but it was so exciting because I learned all about the legal process and stuff like that. And then it was just through working there that I became introduced to a lady called Rhona who one day gave me a divorce petition to draft, and said, Do you want to develop draft this divorce petition for me? And I said, Okay, I went away, drafted it. She said I did a good job. So then she gave me another one. And that's how we that's how it came about. Yeah, so what, what the firm said to me is I could be a legal executive if I wanted, because I wanted to work at that point. So I went and trained to be a legal executive at night school, and then just continued and continued until I got enough legal subjects to become a solicitor. So it took me 10 years to become a solicitor. Yeah, yeah. So that's how I did it. I did it in a really long winded kind of way, but because of that, I got lots of experience talking to people and meeting clients and things like that. So yeah, it was nice way to do it. 

Sarah Elizabeth  03:43

I was just going to say that it must have given you a hell of a lot of experience and insight into the different things that can go on and what can happen. 

Rebecca Baker  03:52

Definitely. So as a newly qualified I was in a lot better position than somebody who come out of university, yeah, but didn't have that hand on, hands on client experience. And I've been working with clients for years, and it was since being 16, because I kind of started doing the office Junior the clerking and sitting behind reception. So you're constantly talking to people. I think that's one of the big skills about being a lawyer. You need to be able to talk to people. Yeah. So, yeah. So that that's where it all started. 

Sarah Elizabeth  04:22

And also I think that quite often you learned so much more on the job, as they say, than just out of a textbook. Because, you know, I know, when I did my masters in social work, I learned all the theory on all of that stuff, but actually, nothing prepares you quite like going to knock on someone's door and tell them you're removing their children than doing it. You know you they can't teach you to do that. You know absolutely nothing. Learning on the job is absolutely amazing, because it does give you that breadth and depth of what you need to know, right? 

Rebecca Baker  04:59

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It makes you a good people person. And for me, that's the biggest part of my job. 

Sarah Elizabeth  05:05

Totally, totally. So how did you land on divorce? Was it starting those petitions? 

Rebecca Baker  05:10

Yeah, it was starting those divorce petitions with the with Rhona. I'll never forget her and I worked, I really worked at Jack's for a very long time on this very, very tiny, little wage. I think we started on a YTS scheme at 35 pound a week. And it were like, you know, when you look back and you think, God, but yeah, I worked for him for about five years, and then started at a firm in Barnsley, a bigger firm called Rayleigh, and I got introduced to a lady called Jane McCulloch, who liked me and took me under my under a wing. And I mean, I still know Jane. Now she kind of taught me everything I knew. 

Sarah Elizabeth  05:44

Wow. 

Rebecca Baker  05:45

Back in the day when I started at Rayleigh's there was still, Legal Aid were very readily available. So what used to happen is the the up and coming trainees, as we were, used to get all the legal aid stuff. So you got to deal with the domestic violence, you got to deal with the children cases. So you got lots and lots of experience at that end of it, and it wasn't until later on. So you kind of start in family work with a divorce petition. Do the divorce petition? Do a very straightforward divorce, and then you learn how to do the other bits, which are the financial order, which is the way to resolve the financial issues which come out of the divorce. But back in the day, it was about basically going to court, doing injunctions, getting non molestation orders, occupation orders, and sometimes it was about children, we had to go into court. You know, they used to throw a file at you at nine o'clock in morning and say, You're off to court at 11. And I'm like, Whoa, that's really scary, yeah, because, I mean, I would only you, you think about it, we're 18 at the time. You couldn't do that. Now, you couldn't, you wouldn't give a file to an 18 year old and tell them to go to court at all. But back then, you know, because everybody used to just pay you on green form, which was a legal aid certificate back then, yeah, so, and that's, that's where you cut your teeth. You cut your teeth on jobs like that.

Sarah Elizabeth  07:04

 Yeah, 100% so is legal aid harder now? Is that, generally?

Rebecca Baker  07:09

You won't get legal aid these days, unless, the only time you can get legal aid is you've got to go to a specific firm that offers legal aid, and you've got to they have what, what's called a legal aid franchise, and basically the only people who can get legal aid are those who are victims of domestic abuse. And you've got to be able to you've got to be able to prove it, and the other party's got to be the perpetrator of that abuse as well. So you've got to either be able to show that you're the victim and they have been convicted of the crime. You can get a letter from your doctor that this is one way that a lot of people can get it that wouldn't otherwise get it. You can get a letter from the from the doctor that says you've suffered either mental health issues or other physical issues as a result of the being a victim of domestic abuse. That's another way you can get it. Or if you've been to stay in a refuge, you can get a letter from the refuge. Those are the limited circumstances that it's really difficult, really, really difficult for legal aid now, yeah, yeah, most people have got to pay privately and or they go into the it's bank of Mum and Dad. In a lot of cases, I'm afraid,

Sarah Elizabeth  08:19

Okay, yeah, I didn't know it was that that's rigid now. 

Rebecca Baker  08:23

It is really rigid. It's so difficult. It's so difficult. 

Sarah Elizabeth  08:28

So what, what would be the first steps then that someone would take if they wanted to get a divorce? What would they be thinking about at the very, very outset? What should they be starting to do to prepare? You know. 

Rebecca Baker  08:41

Okay, so what I find as a solicitor is that somebody will split up on Monday with their partner, and then they'll ring me on Tuesday, and they're very upset. They're telling me all about the story of the separation. What are the options? I'm absolutely terrified. What do I do? And I always say to them, you need to go away and think about it, because to make that instantaneous decision, I mean, everybody's different, aren't they, because some people will know straight away I need a divorce, and I've got to take action and do that now, in which case, their first practical step might Be to file an online divorce application, for instance, right? But I would urge everybody and anybody, certainly anyone who ever talks to me, I always say you need to sleep on this. You need to process it, because you need to be emotionally ready to be in a place so that you can navigate this. Because it's a journey. It's quite a long journey, and you've got to be in the right place. I've even said to people in the past, go and find a counsellor, or I do refer people to counsellors who I know, and I do say to them, you know, it's important to get your head straight. It's like that old saying, isn't it that they say on a plane, you need to fit your gas mask before you help everyone else. And I think that's really true with divorce, because you're not only going through it yourself, often, you're taking your children through it. So you it's important, I think, to take a breath talk to your people. You know your whoever's around you, whoever can support you get kind of get them to understand how you're feeling, and then you feel stronger to move forward. I think, yeah, so that doesn't really practically answer your question, does it? 

Sarah Elizabeth  10:28

But I think it's important to think about because, like, I totally get what you mean, because, like, for my for me, I'd left my ex husband in so much as to go away for the night. He'd hit me a few weeks before, and as a social worker, and I was like, this could happen again. Now, you know, it was the first time in 23 years, but it can happen. Yeah, so I went away for the night to kind of really think and get some space, and he then took the opportunity to end it, and I didn't still at that place, because it was so terrifying, and I had so much fear of the unknown, I didn't initially want to end it, and I wanted to go through relationship counselling, relationship therapy together. He agreed to go with me, but only two air quotes helped me move on. So I didn't actually see a solicitor straight away, but it then over the course of the next two or three months, everything kind of came out about the financial abuse. He'd been cheating on me, living with someone else, all of the rest of it. And so it was at that point I was like, right. Okay, I now want the divorce. He changed his mind at that point and wanted me back once it all came out. 

Rebecca Baker  11:45

When you took control. 

Sarah Elizabeth  11:46

Then, yeah, exactly that. So I then took the, I think they still do it, the free hour with a solicitor do they still do that? 

Rebecca Baker  11:53

Okay? Well, some solicitors do, to be fair, most solicitors offer a free consultation, and in reality, that's about 20 minutes. So I offer that I speak to clients and say to them, you know, what's the problem? Find out a bit about the case, and then I tell them about how much it's going to cost, and I give them tips and tricks as to what they can do themselves. So I mean, going back to your question, What can people practically do. I think if you take aside the emotional journey aspect of it, because, like I say, everybody's different. Somebody is ready the next day to start. Other people need two weeks. Sometimes people come back to me. I mean, I had a chap who came to say, oh, what's the date of separation 15 years ago?

Sarah Elizabeth  12:38

Yes, wow.

Rebecca Baker  12:39

As you can see, it is as individual as everybody in the UK. Nobody, nobody is going to react the same way as the next person. And after 30 years practice, I can safely say I've never dealt with the same divorce twice that they're all so different. But what you might want to take as a practical step is you might want to get to that 20 minutes free interview with a solicitor, because I think it's important to line your ducks up. That is a really practical first step. The other thing you might want to do is hunt down your marriage certificate, because if you are going to issue a divorce application, you need the marriage certificate to do it. Okay, some people might actually go online and actually start the divorce application. So I'll often say to a client, if you are going, if you read it, if you made the decision, go and apply for your divorce, then come back when the divorce petition has been issued, and then we can start looking at the finances, right? Yeah. So the practical steps are, decide what you want to start your divorce, because if it's over, you need your divorce to start because it takes six months long time, doesn't it does. It does. And the court can't make a financial order until the conditional order, so you'll remember decree nisi and Decree Absolute. So yes. So in April 2022, the law changed, and we've no longer got a decree nisi, we've got a conditional order now, yeah, and instead of a Decree Absolute, we've got a final order. So the process is the same in the six months, but you've got the conditional order and the final order, you can't file a financial order until the conditional order. So from day one, from day one, it's going to take you four and a half months before you can file an agreed financial order with the cohort. 

Sarah Elizabeth  12:51

And that's the minimum, right? 

Rebecca Baker  14:39

That's, the bare minimum, yeah, because I know mine ended up taking me because he didn't want it. He didn't respond to anything. So it took. It ended up taking, oh, my God, about 18 months in. 

Rebecca Baker  14:52

Yeah, yeah. And I would say that's mid range, Sarah, to be honest, because I've got cases that have last three to four years. Hmm. So again, they're all different. Everything's different, and it depends on how cooperative the other person is as well, and that's often not even in your control, yeah, but from a practical perspective, the other thing I'd probably do so you get your marriage certificate, you decide, and you possibly apply for a divorce, but the other thing I'd start to do is get together key information about your own financial circumstances. So you're going to need that things like bank statements are going to be provided. You're going to need your P60 you're going to need your wage slips, various different documentation to assist with the process, depending which option you choose. So yeah, it's kind of getting your practical paperwork organised, I would say, and the other, the other top tip, I would say, is speak to a lawyer, and perhaps speak to more than one lawyer. You might want to have 20 minutes with somebody and then speak to another one and decide who's right for you. Because solicitors, we're all different, like all our clients are different, and you need somebody who you feel comfortable with, somebody we can talk to, and somebody you feel like is going to care about your case and help you through it so and, and I think going with your guts is important with that one as well. 

Sarah Elizabeth  16:13

Yeah, now totally it is. And I know the solicitor I used in my divorce probably 80% of the time that I paid for was more therapeutic than actually legal advice, you know, because you do have to be able to talk to them about exactly what's going on and backgrounds as well. Yeah. Do you have to have a solicitor? Or can you start it yourself? 

Rebecca Baker  16:38

No, I always say to people, start you divorce yourself, yeah? Because, I mean, I can start a divorce for anybody, if you want me to. But it's not hard to go online. There's an HMC TS online portal, which you could put in the show notes, actually, yes, yeah, which you can click on go through, and you need to pay a court fee, which has just gone up to 612 pounds. And what happens is the it takes you through the process, it's kind of fill your form in from the marriage certificate. You need your marriage certificate as well, because you're going to take a picture of it, and it's got to show all four corners you go on the divorce and then you're given a matter number, and it's that matter number that you'll need to take to your solicitor. So I say to a client, bring the matter number back, and then I know which matter number I put on that consent order, which is really important that we need. We'll talk about later, but it's something that a consent order is where the financial order ties in with the divorce, if that makes sense. Okay, yeah, it's kind of your unique reference number for the separation and later finances. So I say to clients, yeah, do that bit yourself. Now, when they get on a sticky wicket, is when the other party doesn't respond to the divorce, and that's usually when they might come back to me and say, What do I do next? And that's when I'll get an inquiry agent to serve the client personally, but where you need a solicitor is for the finance because it's complicated. We've got to file this agreed order with the court, and drafting that document is very technical, and I think you've got to get it right, because that document, when it's done correctly, is going to future proof your assets for the rest of your life, and that's where I'd spend the money. 

Sarah Elizabeth  18:26

Yeah, definitely, that makes complete sense, especially when it can get messy and can get nasty. You mentioned about the change to decree, nisi and Decree Absolute to the conditional and final order at the same time that then changed, to the no fault divorce didn't it, because, in my day, was unreasonable behaviour adultery the two years or the five years, 

Rebecca Baker  18:51

It used to complicate things that, because what happened when you started a divorce, as you will remember, you had to cite the other person's adultery. You could only do it if they admitted it, so if they were admitting adultery, then you couldn't proceed on adultery, which was a pain. The alternative was unreasonable behaviour. And most petitions ended up being an unreasonable behaviour petition, although you couldn't actually dress it up as adultery, but sometimes what you've done, I remember you saying to client, we need five or six examples of the other party's unreasonable behaviour. And they said to me, Well, what does that mean? What unreasonable behaviour? And it could be anything, anything from leaving the loo seat up to punching you in the face. It was that broad the spectrum. And sometimes look at these petitions and think, what are we? Are we really going to proceed on that basis? But what happened in April 2022, is the resolution committee, who is a Family Law Committee of family solicitors are all committed to this conciliatory approach to family law. They basically lobbied the government after many years and got this No fault divorce through and what it means is that now we can just apply and say to the judge, because we're all adults, we don't know it to that person anymore. And you don't have to give that judge a reason. You can say, I don't want to be with that person, so I'm going to walk away. That's all you need to do. There's no reason to provide it. It's simply filling in the form with your details, giving them a copy of your marriage certificate, paying the court fee, and you will get a divorce. And the reason that's better is because in the past, you always had to prepare a document outlining the other person's unreasonable behaviour, and that, in my humble opinion, was the thing that dictated everything else, because nobody ever forgets it when you say something bad about them. So in a divorce petition, it might say X, Y and Z, and people fixate on it, and they think everybody knows. And I used to watch to say to clients, nobody will ever see this. I've seen it. You've seen it. The other party sees and their solicitor and the judge, and the judge will have forgotten it in 10 minutes because they're reading them all time, time and time again. But as a person, an individual who is being divorced or having a divorce petition filed against them, it is intensely personal, and it's an attack, and when you're attacked, you're not open to negotiations, and that was the problem, because everybody was in a high state of conflict before we'd even started the real part of it, which is to what we're going to do with these assets. So for me, personally, it is a good thing that we don't have the adultery or unreasonable behaviour anymore. 

Sarah Elizabeth  21:40

I totally get that. I think for me, I I went down the unreasonable behaviour route because I wanted to encompass the financial issues and the hitting me and the emotional abuse and all of that, as well as the adultery. So I wanted to encompass that. But it's interesting, I suppose, because at that time, it's all I had, that's all that's all I could do. There was no option of no fault divorce then. So, yeah, I didn't have an opportunity to do that. But then it was also, 

Rebecca Baker  22:10

There was an option of no fault divorce Sarah but you had to wait two years. 

Sarah Elizabeth  22:16

Oh, the two years, yeah, 

Rebecca Baker  22:18

so you could do two years separation. 

Sarah Elizabeth  22:20

I didn't want to wait. 

Rebecca Baker  22:21

People hated that because they had to wait two years. 

Sarah Elizabeth  22:24

Yeah, exactly. 

Rebecca Baker  22:25

And then everything, everything's up in the air for two years, and the five years if they didn't consent, five years if they didn't consent, it was bizarre. 

Sarah Elizabeth  22:32

He would have made me wait for five years, and I would have absolutely hated that. But I always say it now it's almost like when you get a degree, whether you get a two, two or two, one or a first or whatever it, you hold so much on it. You put so much value on that classification. But actually, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't actually matter. You know, you've just got a degree, that's it. You don't tell anyone. 

Rebecca Baker  22:57

Yeah, I agree. Divorce, yeah, in the heat of the moment when there's a divorce and when somebody is divorcing the other person, I think the problem with citing unreasonable behaviour or adultery is that forevermore, that person can say this was your fault, or the person who receives the petition, yeah, might say they've lied, they've, they've, they've come up with things. And I have reasons too. So you know what I mean? 

Sarah Elizabeth  23:26

It does create a conflict that doesn't need to be there. 

Rebecca Baker  23:30

Just get a version of events. And you know, this is the problem with it. So what the what the law decided was, let's take all that away, and let's just say to parties, you can get divorced, and you don't have to come up with a reason, and you can even file a joint application now, so husband and wife might say, let's do it together. So you can sit there together. You can start the process together. There's two applicants. You're joint applicants, and you go through the process together, although don't particularly recommend that, because what happens is then they fall out later, and then the other person will not, they'll not press the button later on. You've got a big shamuzzle to deal with, but yeah, at least the the facility is there for us to be very grown up about the separation and the divorce. 

Sarah Elizabeth  24:16

And it's conflict minimization, isn't it? It's it? Because it's a very high conflict, by emotion time, and it's very stressful for both people. And even if you want the divorce, it's still emotional and stressful. 

Rebecca Baker  24:31

What I think about that is that when you get divorced, and this is my experience with my clients, is that there's this huge adjustment, because suddenly the rest of your life isn't going to look like what you thought it were going to be. Yeah. So I think that, in itself is such a massive, a massive thing to come to terms with. It's like a bereavement, isn't it, and against the backdrop of all that resolving finances is the challenge. That's why it's. So difficult. 

Sarah Elizabeth  25:01

Yeah, so talking of finances, things like, is it always split? Is it always 5050 in divorces? 

Rebecca Baker  25:10

So you'll never get a straight answer for lawyer. What I will say about the 5050 is, that's the starting point of the court. So all things being equal, you will get a 5050, settlement. So imagine a client comes to you and they say, right, we've got a house. We've got 100,000 pounds worth of equity in the house. There are no children. We each earn 60,000 pounds in our jobs. We've both paid into a pension for the same amount of time. We are the same age, okay, yeah, and we've got no other savings, and can't think of anything else that would apply to that. So we've got pretty equal situation there. That's a 5050, case. So what I would say to wife or husband, whoever I was representing in that case is this, look straight down the middle. Make a proposal. If they said, We want to sell the house, you might say, sell the house, divvy up half each Yeah. Or if one person wanted to take on the mortgage, they'd have to pay the other party out 50k which would represent half of the equity. That 100k equity we talked about, which is very, very simplistic. This isn't kind of a formula to get what you do, but that would be that. But what you've got to take into account from that benchmark of 5050, life's a lot messier than that. So the judge has got something that we call section 25 factors. So the main piece of law that governs financial issues on divorce, it's called the Matrimonial Causes act 1973, so section 25 factors is a practical list under that piece of legislation that the judge will take into account when determining the 5050 so I have got the section 25 factors list here. So just to give you an example, income earning capacity, other financial resources, financial needs, obligations and responsibilities, standard of living, Age of each party, physical or mental disability. Contributions. 

Sarah Elizabeth  27:21

Wow, 

Rebecca Baker  27:22

Yeah. So as you can see, from that, go back to that couple again that we talked about, you suddenly put a child into the mix there, right? You think about wife, wife, and this is being a bit stereotypical, but just to give the example, to illustrate the point, wife decides that she's going to give up work to look after that child. So we've just got husband, 60k there, haven't we? She might work part time, so she might earn, I don't know, 30k let's make it really simple. She earns 30k now, but that's affected her pension contributions, because she's been at home looking after baby. So that pension is suddenly imbalanced, isn't it? So he's investing more into the he's possibly paying the mortgage now. So we'll think, actually, I'm paying more to the mortgage, and that, but the court will say, but because you're paying more to the mortgage, because she's looking after the child, so it's still equal, but her pension has gone down, so you need to readdress the balance by looking at the balance of each pension. Do you see how it becomes a balance? And it literally is a case of looking at each individual case, identifying what the assets are, looking at the liabilities, comparing the incomes, looking at the pensions, and then saying, right, let's start from 5050 but is that going to work? Well, in this case scenario, with our couple, her mortgage capacity will have gone down, won't it, because she's only now on 30 and he's on 60. So what might happen in that case is that suddenly we're saying, all right, then she needs a little bit more of the equity, because he's got a better mortgage capacity and can buy a house and rehouse himself. Does that make sense? 

Sarah Elizabeth  29:04

Yeah, makes complete sense. It makes complete and utter sense, which obviously also then shows how messy and complicated it can get, and just what a solicitor and lawyer can do to help with that, right? 

Rebecca Baker  29:18

Yeah, it's so difficult, and that's where the value in a solicitor is, because we deal with these cases day in, day out. And what you tend to do when you've got a case is you get all the assets, you understand what the financial position is. You need evidence as well to back all that up. So what we normally do is a process called full and frank disclosure, and what that means, practically, is each party exchanges full details of their circumstances supported by evidence. So you have to look at the P 60 and the last three months worth of wage slips to understand the income. We need something called a cash equivalent transfer value for the pension to understand the pension. So. So you need a valuation for the property, or you agree the value of the property. If you don't want to go to that expense, we need to look at the redemption figure on the mortgage so we can decide what the equity is. And you need that for both parties. You need all the evidence, and then you've got all the figures down on a piece of paper. And then you think, right, then, what can we do with this? How can we redistribute the assets to meet both parties needs? But going back to our couple, there's a sting. Well, it's not really a sting in the tail, but it's the overriding factor. So if you're going back to this question to me, 5050, is it always 5050? What's important to remember is, going back to this section, 25 factors is in cases where there are young children, the court's first concern will always be the welfare of those young children and how their needs will be met. In reality, the decisive factor in the majority of cases is the reasonable needs of the parties and the children of the family. So decisive factor is a really strong word in law. So if you think about that scenario, that child in that couple, that child needs a home, probably until they're 18, so that child is going to weigh the overall decision of the court, because they're going to put that child right in the centre of their consideration and fit the puzzle around that as best they can. Yeah? 

Sarah Elizabeth  31:25

And then it comes into all sorts of things, like the meshers is it meshers agreement? 

Rebecca Baker  31:28

Yeah? So when you talk about a measure order, you're talking about the order that says wife stays in the I mean, again, I'm generalising, but it's still the case usually, yeah. So you might say what? Or it's the main caregiver stays in the form of matrimonial home until the child reaches the age of maturity. But there's other trigger factors as well. So you what you'd factor into the order is, you'd say 18 or finishing university education, whichever is whichever is the younger or later, depending on what you agreed. But the other trigger factors can be such as until that person remarries or cohabits with somebody for six months or doesn't want to live there anymore, or you might even factor in until they can afford to buy that person out. So sometimes, the person who's the caregiver might need to work less hours because that child's really young and needs that extra care. But as the child gets older, of course, you can expand your hours at work. Can't you, thereby increasing your mortgage capacity. And you can factor that into an order by saying, when this child attains the age of, say, secondary school education, this person then needs to up their hours and keep trying to release the other person from the mortgage. Do you know what I mean? So what I'm trying to get is each case is tailored to the individual circumstances of the case completely get that. 

Sarah Elizabeth  33:02

Yeah, it's just so complicated, isn't it? I mean, I would say it's very rarely a clean split then, because I would imagine that most people are not in that equal scenario to go into it with. And, you know, people put different amounts of money as deposits on houses and and all sorts of things, don't they? 

Rebecca Baker  33:21

Absolutely do? Yeah. So the answer to the question, in a very long winded way, is, probably, is it can be 5050 but there's often very good reason for it not to be 5050. I think the summary is, if it's a needs case. So that means if you need to house somebody, and the assets aren't gonna quite cut it. You're gonna move beyond 5050 Do you know what I mean? Yeah, needs Trump. So what we say in the profession is, needs Trump equality, right? 

Sarah Elizabeth  33:56

And the welfare of the child is always paramount, 

Rebecca Baker  33:58

Always the first consideration, always, yeah, 

Sarah Elizabeth  34:02

So I think said we're going to get you on regularly. So I think we'll do a special, maybe money, one, financial one, and look into all the pensions and things as well, because that's really complicated, isn't it? And then maybe one on the children. We can do whatever, if listeners want to tell us what they want. We can focus on that in future episodes. 

Rebecca Baker  34:22

Absolutely. The thing about the pensions is, what you've got to remember about a pension is that is a completely different form of asset to anything else. So if you imagine money at the bank or even equity in a home, that's something that you can get your hands on relatively quickly by withdrawing the money or by selling the house that is almost liquid, isn't it with a pension, it's a future required asset that's the problem with a pension, and because of that, the future required asset is uncertain. Now, if you imagine you're a parent with care, you're living in the house, and you need to get through this divorce as soon as possible, you're going to think this bricks and mortar around me is more important than an asset that is in the future. Because let's face it, who knows what's going to happen tomorrow? Are we even going to get to the future? Nobody knows today. So often the person who is looking after the child might think, I need to get the house here, and what happens is that they end up with the house, and the person who's got the pension in the future protects the future. But what happens in reality is the pension is the better asset. It's the more valuable of the assets. So what happens in reality, then is that the person who keeps their pension has got significantly more than the person who stayed in the house. But in the moment, nobody thinks that. Everybody thinks, Oh, she's taken everything from me. Again, I'm generalising, but often it's the woman who's in the property. And you know, they'll, they'll think, I've lost everything because she's kept the house. And actually, if you compared those assets, 

Sarah Elizabeth  36:02

You've ended up with more 

Rebecca Baker  36:04

Absolutely. And pensions are more valuable than bricks and mortar in many, many cases. So it is a very complicated thing, and the problem with pensions and other assets is they are so different, so often lawyers will say it's like comparing apples with pears, yeah, but actually, it's like comparing apples with jumbo jets, because the two things are so different, so different. So when I'm looking at settlement, what I will always do is put pensions on one piece of paper and then put everything else on another piece of paper, carve that one up, and then look at the pension separately. 

Sarah Elizabeth  36:38

Right. We'll definitely do an episode on that one way, 

Rebecca Baker  36:41

Big subject. 

Sarah Elizabeth  36:45

Yeah, so so much to it isn't there? 

Rebecca Baker  36:47

Yeah, there is, there is. 

Sarah Elizabeth  36:49

So if there was one legal myth or misconception about divorce that drives you mad, drives you a bit, cray. Cray, what would it be? 

Rebecca Baker  37:02

Oh, I know exactly what that is. It is the clean break. The reason it's the clean break is particularly in the advent of the Quickie divorces as it's billed in the media or online divorces or what have you people total online, they apply for a divorce, they get divorced and leave it so I think there's a misconception that the final order, which is what it's called, I think people think it's a final financial order, and it isn't. All it means is that you can marry again. That's that's all that final order does. It's like your old decree, absolute. It means that you can show it to the registrar when you remarry. Okay, what it doesn't do is prevent any claims coming back in the future against the other person. Only a judge can do it. So the clean break order is the thing that everybody needs. Even if you've got no assets, you still need to file a consent order with the court and a D 81 which allows the judge to do this clean break order. And that's what bomb Proof's your future is really, really important, because I'll give you an example a horror story I had a couple of years ago. A lady came to see me, and her and her husband had separated 15 years prior, and she said to me, we'd reached an agreement that signed a bit of paper on the kitchen table. He says, we'll transfer the house to you, but you could never come after me and claim maintenance for our daughter. So that's what happened 15 years down the line, my lady had just finished paying off the mortgage. She had never claimed maintenance from the other person, and she couldn't by the time we got to the end of this because this child had now grown up and was about 19 years of age, right? He came back and he said, I want some of that property. So she comes into me clutching a piece of paper, which they sat and got and I said to her, she says, does that protect me? And I went, absolutely not. She said, Well, at the time, because she did a divorce online, and it were back in days of decree, and I signed Decree Absolute, but she thought that that the Decree Absolute and the evidence the piece of paper signed at the kitchen table was enough, and we had to go to court because he wasn't going away. We tried to get rid of it. Tried to, you know, throw this bit of paper around and say that any proceedings would be hotly contested. But he nonetheless went ahead with it. So the problem with this is that we then had to not only produce information regard the assets at the time, we had to go back and get the historical information as well. And by the time we got to go, so you can imagine the amount of paperwork involved. You can imagine the amount of time it spent trolling through those documents. So when we get to court, we had to value the property. And this is the scariest bit about the whole thing. She had to value the property. And the date of the value that's relevant is the value of it at the date of claim. So in 2023, That house was worth 330,000 pounds. In at the date 15 years prior to that, it was worth 150,000 pounds. So he got 10% of 330,000 pounds. It was no longer 5050, because we had the relevant conduct arguments. He'd never paid maintenance, etc. It led us to believe it was all over, and there were other things as well that we were able to persuade the judge. But the problem was he had to be paid out 33,000 pounds because the mortgage had been paid off. But not only that, it had cost of between 18 and 20,000 pounds in legal fees. Because the case was so complicated. There were multiple hearings. We wouldn't budge. They wouldn't budge. It went to a final hearing. So the court ultimately had to make the decision. But that lady said to me, if I'd have met you back then, yes, you could have given me, I don't know, paid a fixed fee. It can cost anything between about 800 quid to 2000 quid for a clean break, depending on how you do it, she'd have spent that money back then. She'd have avoided all that expense. And it's not just the expense, is it? It's the heartbreak. 

Sarah Elizabeth  41:19

It's horrendous. 

Rebecca Baker  41:21

It's been dragged through it all, multiple hearings. And you know that is why everybody needs a clean break. Do it at the time, drag the plaster off, pay the money, invest in your future, because that's what you need to do. You need to bomb proof your future. So in answer to your question, I hate it when people think the divorce is done because of this online thing that everybody thinks final order is the end of the obligation to each other, but when people say, I'm not paying legal fees on that clean break because it's not worth it, well, it is worth it. Is worth it because you've got to, you've got to look after future you do. You know what I mean? It's an investment to protect yourself in the future. And that's my that's my biggest bug bear. 

Sarah Elizabeth  42:07

That is a terrifying story, but I imagine that it easily happens. 

Rebecca Baker  42:13

It happens to so many people I know. 

Sarah Elizabeth  42:18

So I guess really, that sums up the importance of finding the right solicitor for you, right? So how do people do that? What's the best way of finding the right solicitor for you? What should they look for when they look for? 

Rebecca Baker  42:34

I think you've got to have a rapport with a solicitor when you speak to them. I think it's important to shop around. You can get solicitors by going on the Find a solicitor on the Law Society website, find somebody who's got a rapport with somebody who understands your case, and somebody who's sympathetic and caring. Some solicitors, and this isn't me, but some solicitors do fire up parties, because the bigger the argument, the bigger the fees. It's why I say, and I really mean this, I try and avoid court at all costs, because you never come back from court. There are court proceedings, and some cases are inevitable, but in most cases, you can navigate the process without having to issue an application. So I would say, shop around, find somebody who feels right for you, and then just trust the process and listen to advice. 

Sarah Elizabeth  43:30

Yes, I love that. So where can listeners find you if they want to go into your expertise a little bit further, because you do everything online, right? So they don't have to be local. 

Rebecca Baker  43:42

Yeah, I've got clients saying sorry. I've got clients up north in Newcastle. I've got the length and breadth of the country. So if anybody wanted to contact me our website, Rutledge law limited, yeah, rutledges.co.uk, I'll ring me. I offer a 20 minute consultation. Have a chat with me, see how you feel, and then we take it from there. I do it through teams. So we meet on teams, you know, I look at your information, take full instructions, and then we agree an action plan, and that's what I do with every single case. Keep it low key, calm as possible, and I'll also, you know, I'll be truthful and honest with you as well. I'm brutally honest, because you've got today, there's no point saying I'm going to win this case, because if it's a rubbish case, you need to know right at the outset. So but listen really carefully to advice, because that is the best way to navigate this whole horrible process with minimal damage. 

Sarah Elizabeth  44:36

I love that. It's amazing advice. That's really good. And I will leave all the links in the show notes as well. 

Rebecca Baker  44:41

Okay, thank you, 

Sarah Elizabeth  44:42

and you're going to be coming back on. So if any listeners want to ask any specific questions, they can just text in the show it's in the show notes as well. So yeah, yeah, lots of roots there. I've got one last question for you, as you know, I host the divorce book Club, which is a monthly membership podcast, book club based on books around divorce, relationships and all things personal development. Have you had a non fiction personal development style book that had an impact on you? 

Rebecca Baker  45:14

I have, yeah, So you and I obviously know each other through Paul Mort's inner circle. Yes, it's an audio book, I think, and it's called Paul Mort talks shit. 

Sarah Elizabeth  45:27

Love it. 

Rebecca Baker  45:28

Well, I've changed it for me that I absolutely love the book. I think he's great. That book led me to join a personal development programme. I think it's alliance for chaps, isn't it? It's inner circle. And I can honestly say that's the book that changed my life. 

Sarah Elizabeth  45:44

Love it. He's a great guy. 

Rebecca Baker  45:46

He's a great guy. 

Sarah Elizabeth  45:47

He's no nonsense, no bullshit, just straight down the line. 

Rebecca Baker  45:51

This is what you practical, useful life advice, I think is the best way to sell it. 

Sarah Elizabeth  45:56

1,000,000% million percent. Yeah, excellent. I've already got that, but I'm sure other people will be adding that to their to be read list. So thank you, and thank you for coming on the podcast for the first time. 

Rebecca Baker  46:09

Oh, it's been my pleasure. 

Sarah Elizabeth  46:11

I'm looking forward to having you back on again in the future as well. 

Rebecca Baker  46:14

Thank you. Okay, I can't wait. Thank you, fabulous. And I will be back in everyone's beautiful earbuds again next time with more so bye.


People on this episode

Head Shot

Sarah Elizabeth

Host